When you’re buried in work, your to-do list is flowing off the page, and you’re feeling totally overwhelmed in your day-to-day activities, I invite you to hit play on this episode. I go old school, describing how to build a very simple Kanban board on your wall, a whiteboard, or any simple Kanban system. Discover how using even the most basic Kanban board can help you break down your work into manageable pieces, focus on what matters most, and start crossing those items off your list with confidence, one sticky note at a time.

Get full show notes, transcript, and more information here: https://www.agileattorney.com/44

Transcript
John Grant:

Are you feeling overwhelmed by a seemingly endless supply of to dos and commitments that you've made that you never seem to be able to make a major dent in, much less get to the bottom of it all?

John Grant:

In today's episode, I'm going to teach you how to make sense of and properly prioritize your various commitments using a very basic Kanban board, one that you can build on a whiteboard or even just a patch of wall space in less than five minutes.

John Grant:

Although you're welcome to use technology if you want, in the process, I'm going to orient you to some of the core principles of the Kanban Method, including establishing work in progress limits, managing external dependencies, and establishing upstream flow.

John Grant:

Taken together, they're going to help you make progress towards one of the unofficial mottos of the Kanban method, Stop starting and start finishing.

John Grant:

Ready to become a more agile attorney?

John Grant:

Let's go.

John Grant:

Hey there.

John Grant:

Welcome back to the Agile Attorney podcast.

John Grant:

I'm John Grant and I help legal professionals of all kinds harness the tools of modern entrepreneurship to build practices that are profitable, scalable and sustainable for themselves and the communities they serve.

John Grant:

This week on the podcast, I'm going to respond to a listener request and thanks, Dave, for sending it in.

John Grant:

And Dave has read my ironically unfinished book that I have available on LeanPub.

John Grant:

It's called Kanban for Lawyers and there is a link to it on my website@agileattorney.com start.

John Grant:

Don't look for it on Amazon.

John Grant:

There's another Kanban for Lawyers book on there that seems to be the product of like a content mill or weird AI thing, and it's exactly what you'd expect from that sort of content.

John Grant:

Okay, so my unfinished Kanban for Lawyers book.

John Grant:

This is a funny topic for me, right, because the whole thing about the Kanban method is stop starting and start finishing.

John Grant:

Right?

John Grant:

It's about getting things all the way to done.

John Grant:

And here's this thing that I started and I actually think it's pretty good.

John Grant:

I like it.

John Grant:

I've gotten really good feedback about it and it's not finished and I'm not sure that it ever will be finished in that format.

John Grant:

I started writing it probably seven or eight years ago now, and I was in a very particular headspace.

John Grant:

I had a perspective on the Kanban method and the needs of lawyers.

John Grant:

That was true at the time.

John Grant:

And I'm just not the person I was when I wrote or when I started writing that book.

John Grant:

So it's still available because I think it's good.

John Grant:

I want to make sure that the content stays up there.

John Grant:

A lot of my understanding of the Kanban method has changed a little bit since I started writing it, which is another reason why I haven't really finished it in that format.

John Grant:

But I still think that the chapters that are there can be really effective and they can be really effective for the thing that Dave is asking about, which is what can I do when I am just buried in work right when my to do list is flowing off the page?

John Grant:

I'm feeling totally overwhelmed in my day to day activities.

John Grant:

How can I use Kanban as a tool to try to make myself more productive, more efficient, or at least make sense of all of this demand that I have for my finite time and attention?

John Grant:

So I'm going to go old school and I'm going to describe how to build a very simple Kanban board on your wall using a whiteboard or maybe just a blank space, a wall and some painters tape.

John Grant:

Or you don't even really need lines for the columns, right?

John Grant:

You can put some headers on the wall and your brain will draw the column.

John Grant:

A very simple system.

John Grant:

And then if you want to do this in a Kanban tool, obviously I have talked a lot about Kanban Zone as one that I like a lot and they have some basic templates in there already.

John Grant:

But you could use Planner, you could use Trello, you could use any number of very simple Kanban systems.

John Grant:

We're not talking about building the ultimate Kanban workflow for your entire law firm right now.

John Grant:

We're talking about using Kanban to make sense of the avalanche of work that you, you've got on your desk today.

John Grant:

And honestly, if you want to hit pause right now and get some very basic supplies, you could do this just following along with the podcast.

John Grant:

You don't have to, but get yourself a pack of sticky notes and a pen.

John Grant:

A Sharpie works best, but any pen will do.

John Grant:

And we're just going to start building.

John Grant:

So I want you to start by creating three column headers.

John Grant:

And again you can use a sticky note for this.

John Grant:

One of them is going to be to do.

John Grant:

One of them is going to be in progress and the last one is going to be done.

John Grant:

And this is the simplest possible Kanban board.

John Grant:

You can't boil it down any further than this.

John Grant:

One of the things we're doing with this tool, with this method that is different from the to do list or the checklist is we're having that in progress column.

John Grant:

Be sort of explicit.

John Grant:

It's right there in your face.

John Grant:

The problem with a traditional checklist is that it's easy to see the work that you have left to do and then when you've checked it, you can see what's done, but it doesn't give you a good sense of what's in progress.

John Grant:

And as I've talked about for many, many episodes on this podcast, it's that work in progress that is the killer.

John Grant:

It's the number of balls that you're juggling at the same time that gets you to the point where you're not paying so much attention to the individual balls that you're juggling as you are the spaces between balls, right?

John Grant:

That admin administrative overhead to track and manage and just sort of have the work taking up space in your brain, your systems, whatever.

John Grant:

And I'll admit, right, if you are a fancy bullet journaler, you might have an iconography that you use to delineate in progress tasks.

John Grant:

You know, if it's working for you, I don't necessarily want to get you to change it.

John Grant:

But if you are just using a traditional checklist, right, if you've got that yellow legal pad with just lines and lines and lines of to do's on it, then I think rearranging things into this simple Kanban workflow can be really impactful.

John Grant:

And so we're going to take those column header stickies and slap them up on the wall.

John Grant:

And again, if you're doing this in an online system, right, just name the columns to do, doing and done.

John Grant:

Probably any Kanban system is going to have those as your default.

John Grant:

Anyway, if you're using a whiteboard, maybe you draw some column lines between those stickies.

John Grant:

If you're on a wall, maybe you could throw some painters tape or something up there to give yourself a line.

John Grant:

But like I said before, you don't really need the lines.

John Grant:

Your brain will draw the lines.

John Grant:

It knows what a column is.

John Grant:

Now here's the thing I want you to do is get the next sticky or again, create a card in your tool and I want you to write on it build Kanban board version one or V1, and I want you to put it in your doing column.

John Grant:

And I want you to take a step back and I want you to notice that that is the thing that you are doing right now, right?

John Grant:

Obviously you're also listening to this podcast, but the activity you're engaged in is building that Kanban board.

John Grant:

And now I want you to take that build kanban board v1 sticky and move it to the done column.

John Grant:

Because this is all it takes to have a version 1 kanban board, you are done.

John Grant:

This is it.

John Grant:

You've got.

John Grant:

It's a minimum viable product, but it's something that is useful.

John Grant:

It's also something that had a pretty clear scope and it's something that we could accomplish in a single sitting.

John Grant:

And I will talk a little bit about that unit of time in a minute.

John Grant:

But the most important thing is that it is something that is done.

John Grant:

And I really want you to get in the habit of getting things across that finish line and into the done column.

John Grant:

So we'll talk about that more again in a minute.

John Grant:

Here's what I want you to do next.

John Grant:

Take another sticky note and write on it.

John Grant:

Build Kanban board v2 or expand Kanban board or something, right?

John Grant:

We're going to keep building this thing out, but this building of the Kanban board is something that is taking up your capacity, right?

John Grant:

Your finite time and attention.

John Grant:

And so I want you to go ahead and throw that new sticky into the to do column, although we might move it into in progress very, very soon.

John Grant:

Okay, here's what I want you to do next.

John Grant:

You've got that pack of sticky notes.

John Grant:

Now I want you to set a three minute timer on your phone, on your watch, wherever, and I want you to sit down with that pack of sticky notes and write out on different stickies all of the things that you have got in flight right now.

John Grant:

What are the projects, the tasks, the emails, the whatever that you have started working on but maybe aren't completely done yet.

John Grant:

And I want each of those to show up on a separate sticky.

John Grant:

And again, this should be at the task or what I sometimes call the task set level.

John Grant:

And I'll get to that unit of time I described a minute ago.

John Grant:

I want these to be things that you can accomplish or maybe someone on your team.

John Grant:

But this is personal for now.

John Grant:

So I want it to be something that you can accomplish in a single sitting.

John Grant:

And I don't know exactly how long a sitting is, but I think it is more than a few minutes and less than a day.

John Grant:

And it's something where once you start working, you should be able to work it all the way to done without stopping.

John Grant:

And the reason we're setting a three minute timer for this, it's a tool out of the agile world and other places called time boxing.

John Grant:

And what we want to do is make sure that you are engaging in sort of a focused mental sprint of getting these things out of your head and onto paper.

John Grant:

But we don't have to be 100% complete.

John Grant:

We just need to get Most of the things out of your head.

John Grant:

Because if you're already overwhelmed by work, we don't want to basically create the entire laundry list of things you need to do.

John Grant:

It's going to come anyway.

John Grant:

Once you start working, you're going to think of other things that you're working on and you can always add them later.

John Grant:

But the this initial brain dump is something that's really better to do in a time boxed setting.

John Grant:

And if three minutes isn't enough, right.

John Grant:

Repeat the timer, take it to six, take it to five, whatever it takes, but don't let yourself go on forever and ever about it.

John Grant:

And by the end of this exercise, you're going to have a little pile of sticky notes in front of you.

John Grant:

It might look like, you know, your front yard in autumn.

John Grant:

Now, before we put those stickies up on your board, I actually want to do a little bit of board design work to build out a slightly more robust version of this tool.

John Grant:

So go ahead and take that.

John Grant:

Create version 2 of the Kanban board sticky note and put it into the in progress column.

John Grant:

And then here's what we're going to do.

John Grant:

First thing is we're going to add another header.

John Grant:

So I want you to take a sticky note and on it write the words waiting on others.

John Grant:

And then I want you to take that sticky note and put it between the in progress column and the done column.

John Grant:

So we're basically adding another state that is a waiting state, but it's very specifically to capture the things that we have started and then sent to some other person or entity.

John Grant:

And we can't really do much on it because we're waiting on somebody else to do their thing before we can continue or finish with ours.

John Grant:

So now we have a four column board, right.

John Grant:

We're a little bit more robust.

John Grant:

We're going to add a few more columns and we're going to do it in the to do section of the board.

John Grant:

And let's start by creating three more header stickies.

John Grant:

One of them is going to say today, one of them is going to say tomorrow, one of them is going to say this week.

John Grant:

And that's going to get us started.

John Grant:

Now, if you want to, we can actually go even further to the left.

John Grant:

This is called Upstream and the Kanban methodology.

John Grant:

So maybe you want to go even further into the future.

John Grant:

But I think the further into the future we go, the less specific we should be.

John Grant:

And so the two other headers that I like to use, one of them is sooner or soonish and the other is later.

John Grant:

And so these are things where when you put them up on your wall or again building them in your software, you're effectively, effectively creating a funnel of work that is going through these various time horizons to get to your Today column and then eventually your in progress column.

John Grant:

And this is really going to help you eventually with prioritizing work and also seeing the quantity of work that you've committed to.

John Grant:

And I'll talk more about that in a minute.

John Grant:

For now, go ahead and take down the to do sticky note and replace that with today and then go ahead and build these additional columns off to the left.

John Grant:

So you're going to go tomorrow and then this week and then soonish and then later.

John Grant:

And that's probably going to be enough for now.

John Grant:

Now, once again, I want you to take that build Kanban V2 card and stick it in the done column, because we've done it, We've created a version 2 of this tool.

John Grant:

It's not that hard to get things done when you scope it the right way and when you commit the time to actually doing it.

John Grant:

And now that we've got this sort of slightly more robust structure of our Kanban board, I want you to take a few minutes and for that pile of stickies that you created a minute ago, I want you to place them on the board in the appropriate column.

John Grant:

Now, if you remember, my call to action for that time box was to capture the things that you're already working on.

John Grant:

And so most of these things probably are going to go either in the in progress column or in the waiting column.

John Grant:

But my guess is that you probably already have started to capture things that you need to do in addition to things that you have already started.

John Grant:

And so those are the things that are going to start to go in either today, tomorrow, this week, or sometime in the future.

John Grant:

And what you're doing in this exercise is planning for your finite capacity.

John Grant:

Now, there's a few other little things you can do here with the stickies, with the cards that might help you down the road.

John Grant:

You don't have to do it right out of the shoot, but these are some techniques that tend to be pretty useful early on in your use of a Kanban methodology.

John Grant:

Number one, if you have access to some different colored sticky notes, you might think about using a different color sticky for different types of work.

John Grant:

And I know I already had you brain dump.

John Grant:

And so this is going to involve rewriting some stickies.

John Grant:

That's okay because it's going to give us some information.

John Grant:

Again, if you don't want to do this not that big a deal, but I find it can be helpful to designate one color sticky as client delivery work.

John Grant:

Whatever your practice area is.

John Grant:

If you have a lot of practice areas, you could even have different colors for different practice areas.

John Grant:

But you don't need to take it quite that far.

John Grant:

I think just having one color for client work can be helpful.

John Grant:

And so if you do have multicolored stickies, I want you to actually start creating a key.

John Grant:

So pick a color.

John Grant:

Whatever your client work color is, write the words client work on it.

John Grant:

And then maybe up above the board or maybe off to the side, you'll basically just have this notation that, oh, this color that I chose, I'm going to say blue is my client work color.

John Grant:

Then you can pick another color for internal work or on the business work.

John Grant:

And again, write down internal work on the business and put that sticky up in your key.

John Grant:

The third one that can be useful is personal work or personal tasks.

John Grant:

Right.

John Grant:

Your capacity is finite regardless of what you're using it for.

John Grant:

And so especially if you are a smaller practice or even not right, if you're just sort of managing your personal work, having that sort of personal tasks thing can be helpful on the board.

John Grant:

So three colors.

John Grant:

Again, you can expand it out a little bit if you want to, but I wouldn't go crazy at this point.

John Grant:

The other thing that you can start to do sort of right out of the chute that can be really helpful is to try to begin to scope the work.

John Grant:

And so what I mean by that, if you, for the cards that you've written, pick a corner, let's say the bottom right corner.

John Grant:

And I want you to just for every card that you've created already, think about how much time you think it's going to take you to complete that task and get it all the way to done.

John Grant:

Don't get too granular here, right.

John Grant:

So if you think you can do it in 15 minutes, maybe write a 0.25.

John Grant:

Really a 0.5?

John Grant:

A half an hour is as small as I recommend most people go.

John Grant:

Although again, that little half task can be okay.

John Grant:

But once you get above sort of an hour and a half, I would just start using whole numbers.

John Grant:

Don't estimate 2.75.

John Grant:

That's not realistic.

John Grant:

Anyway, we're not going to stick to it that way.

John Grant:

Big numbers is fine.

John Grant:

No one's going to hold you to it.

John Grant:

And we actually want to sort of use these bigger numbers to our advantage in a minute.

John Grant:

I would also sort of coming back to this unit of time that is A sitting.

John Grant:

If you've written something on a sticky note and your brain is saying, Yeah, I need eight hours, I need 12 hours for this, what I would suggest is decompose it into multiple parts.

John Grant:

And you know, I think a sitting, a reasonable sitting really isn't any longer than about four hours.

John Grant:

So if your number on that estimate is bigger than four hours, break it down, break it up.

John Grant:

Get some discrete chunks of work that you can actually finish in that single sitting.

John Grant:

And again, if you're following along while you're listening, obviously you're gonna need to hit pause.

John Grant:

This is gonna take you a little while, right?

John Grant:

Maybe as long as 15, 30 minutes, I'm not sure.

John Grant:

But we really wanna get a good handle on the work we have committed to in the near term and be able to, number one, make sure that we understand what the scope of that work is, what we think the time commitment is going to be.

John Grant:

And then you're going to go ahead and place those cards on your board right in the column that you think is most appropriate for that work.

John Grant:

If it's something that you've started already but haven't gotten across the finish line, I want you to put it in the in progress column.

John Grant:

If it's something that you've started but you've pushed it off to some other person, then it's going to go in the waiting column column, the external waiting column.

John Grant:

If it's something that you've only barely started or maybe haven't started yet, then it's going to go upstream in one of those to do columns.

John Grant:

And I'm going to leave it up to you whether it goes in today or tomorrow, later this week, etc.

John Grant:

But I want you to really sort of be realistic about what can you reasonably accomplish today.

John Grant:

And that's one of the reasons to have that scoping right, that time estimate on the card.

John Grant:

If the number of cards with time estimates adds up to more than eight hours in your Today column, you're probably not being realistic about what you can finish today, which means you now have to start making choices.

John Grant:

And in fact, there's one other little tweak that you might consider making to your Kanban board columns that's going to help you with this.

John Grant:

And this is establishing a WIP limit or a work in process limit.

John Grant:

And so on that sticky note for your in progress column, you might take it down and in parentheses after work in progress, write the number 8, which is to represent 8 hours.

John Grant:

If you have more than 8 hours worth of work in process at any one time, then you're not likely to be delivering that work in a single sitting.

John Grant:

Same thing goes for the Today column and the tomorrow column.

John Grant:

Right.

John Grant:

We're trying to scope our work in a way that is realistic and that makes it high, highly likely that we're going to be able to get it done when we intend to get it done.

John Grant:

And if you're pushing more than eight hours of work into any single day's sort of container for work, you're setting yourself up for failure.

John Grant:

Now the number can be a little bigger on your this week column.

John Grant:

You might be tempted to put 40 in there because you've got a 40 hour week.

John Grant:

But remember, you've already got today and tomorrow and so I would recommend maybe thinking about using the number 24 for that number.

John Grant:

Right.

John Grant:

So now you've got a week's worth of work that adds up to 40 and the rest of the week is kind of set at a relatively smaller number then for that sooner column.

John Grant:

Maybe that's where you have 40.

John Grant:

Right.

John Grant:

So maybe you use sooner to plan a week in advance and this is, you know, your best intentions, you're not going to get held to this, but it's just a container, it's part of this funnel to get work into your active working system and then later might be more open ended.

John Grant:

Sometimes in the agile world we'll call this the backlog and it often is unbounded.

John Grant:

There's not always a whip limit on that.

John Grant:

You know, again you can build this funnel out as much as you need to, but I think this is a pretty good system for a starting point.

John Grant:

All right, so after you've finished all of these things that I've just suggested, and again, it could be a lot, but I think it's an investment that's going to be worthwhile and what you're going to be able to do is take a step, step back and you're going to have this eight column Kanban board on your wall or again on your screen.

John Grant:

And five of those columns are going to be part of your to do column.

John Grant:

Right.

John Grant:

So it's the funneling work into your active capacity.

John Grant:

Two of those columns are your in progress columns and then you've got done which is the happiest one.

John Grant:

And once you've got all of those stickies out of your head and onto your board, you're going to be able to engage in some better sense making and planning around how to attack all of this work.

John Grant:

And I'm assuming if you're like most lawyers I know or most People, I know that you've just created a lot of cards and that's okay.

John Grant:

It can actually be a little bit overwhelming, a little bit stress inducing at first, but we're going to use it to your advantage and we're going to use it to allow you to more confidently get through the work and get more and more of those tasks and task sets over into that done column.

John Grant:

Once you've got all those cards on your board, I want you to do a couple of things in terms of organizing them.

John Grant:

The first is to reality check them against your WIP limits.

John Grant:

And we've only put WIP limits on a few columns, but I want you to look at the math, right?

John Grant:

Take those estimates of time for all the cards you've got in that column and see whether it goes over that WIP limit or not.

John Grant:

Now, in the in progress column, leave them there.

John Grant:

You're going to be over the WIP limit at first and that's okay.

John Grant:

We don't want to move things out right away.

John Grant:

But what I do want you to do is prioritize the cards by relative importance.

John Grant:

And so the most important cards should go at the top of that column and the less important cards should go at the bottom of that column.

John Grant:

How do we determine importance?

John Grant:

It's kind of up you.

John Grant:

I would start by saying that if there is a deadline approaching, then that card should be closer to the top.

John Grant:

I'm going to go on a very brief tangent and I'm going to talk about the difference between a deadline and a delivery expectation date, maybe a due date.

John Grant:

In the agile world, we sometimes call this a service level expectation.

John Grant:

I consider a deadline to be something that has a true consequence if you fail to deliver the work by that deadline.

John Grant:

These are things like statute of limitations, perform by dates in a contract, court, scheduling deadlines, whatever it happens to be.

John Grant:

But these are things that have a definite consequence where if you get something in before the deadline, no big deal.

John Grant:

If you get something after the deadline, then something bad has happened and maybe something extreme, but either way it's going to take some work to recover from from.

John Grant:

That's different from a due date or an expected by date where you know you've promised a client that you would get the something in three days and you maybe fail to deliver within those three days.

John Grant:

But it's probably not the end of the world if it takes you four days or five days, or sometimes maybe even 10 days.

John Grant:

Although we don't want to get into that habit.

John Grant:

So coming back to prioritizing work, right, we're going to.

John Grant:

First and foremost, things that have an an actual deadline with consequences are going to go up to the top of the column after that, or if you don't have any actual deadline driven work, then what I want you to think about is one of two ways to prioritize the work.

John Grant:

The first one, and this is the method I want to become your default in.

John Grant:

Most of the work that you do is to prioritize it on a first in, first out basis.

John Grant:

And I did a whole episode around this.

John Grant:

That's episode 27.

John Grant:

You can go back and listen, but the basic idea is that we want to deliver work in the order that we committed to it.

John Grant:

And so the oldest tasks would go up to the top.

John Grant:

And like I said, I want this to be your default policy.

John Grant:

So if you don't know how to prioritize something, that should be your fallback.

John Grant:

The oldest stuff goes first, the newer stuff goes after.

John Grant:

The other method that I think you can use right now, especially while you're engaged in this sense making, and while we're really trying to sort of get work off of your plate and into the done column, is to actually sort the work by the least amount of effort it's going to take in order to get it to done.

John Grant:

Which is to say the things that are closest to being finished should go up to the top of the column regardless of when they came in.

John Grant:

And things that are more in their early stages should go to the bottom.

John Grant:

And that's certainly true for your in progress column.

John Grant:

But that can also be true.

John Grant:

Well, as you go upstream, you're going to tend more towards a first in, first out.

John Grant:

But if you've broken work down into multiple stages, then sometimes you might want to take the second part of a multi part task and elevate that to be a little bit higher.

John Grant:

Because we want to get the whole thing done, we don't just want to get parts done.

John Grant:

And again, I already did a whole episode on this concept of close the closable, right, which is getting things done and off your plate.

John Grant:

That's episode five.

John Grant:

So.

John Grant:

So you can go back and listen to that for more detail.

John Grant:

Once you've arranged the cards within the columns, you're good for now, right?

John Grant:

You can actually start working the board.

John Grant:

Use the board to get things across that finish line and into the done column.

John Grant:

As a coach, as a trainer, I want to see the number of sticky notes in that done column really stacking up.

John Grant:

Right.

John Grant:

It should be like a telephone pole outside of a concert van menu.

John Grant:

There's a lot of material on there.

John Grant:

When you've really been sort of working the board in a good way and it feels good to see that, make sure you don't ignore that waiting on others column.

John Grant:

There's actually a little bit of work you can do there, which is to follow up and maybe nag a little bit those people that you're waiting on.

John Grant:

So sometimes that's the stuff that is actually closest to done.

John Grant:

You're just, you've got influence, but not control over when it gets done.

John Grant:

And you should carve out a little bit of time to use that influence when you can.

John Grant:

But mostly you're going to be working on that in progress column and I want you to really think about getting the things that have been in progress for a while.

John Grant:

Get those done and off your plate.

John Grant:

Get them where they need to be.

John Grant:

Things that you have started a little bit, but maybe not made as much progress on, get those done too.

John Grant:

Get yourself down under that WIP limit, right?

John Grant:

And then once that in progress column has capacity in it, then you can start pulling tasks from your Today column, right?

John Grant:

And you should pull from the top of that column into the in progress.

John Grant:

And eventually I'd like to see that WIP limit for the in progress column get smaller than eight.

John Grant:

It should actually go down to maybe only two or three cards at a time, if even that.

John Grant:

I mean, realistically, you can only do one thing at a time.

John Grant:

You may have a few balls in the air, and that's okay, but we really want to keep the amount of concurrent work that you're processing and managing to a minimum.

John Grant:

All right, I'm going to leave it at that for today.

John Grant:

Thank you for listening.

John Grant:

If you found today's episode interesting or useful, please share it with someone you think would benefit from a more agile approach to their practice.

John Grant:

If you've got questions, feedback questions that you'd like to hear me address on the podcast, you can reach me@john grantorney.com I've said this in my outro that's pre recorded, but it really does help me.

John Grant:

If you go onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify and give me a rating or a review, it helps other people find this podcast better.

John Grant:

And as always, I want to say thank you to my production team at Digital Freedom Productions.

John Grant:

They make me sound good.

John Grant:

Thanks for listening and I will talk to you again next week.

John Grant:

Thanks for listening to the Agile Attorney podcast.

John Grant:

I'm your host, John Grant.

John Grant:

If you found today's episode interesting or useful, please share it with someone who you think would benefit from a more agile approach to their legal practice.

John Grant:

If you have any questions, feedback, or maybe a topic you'd like to hear me cover, you can reach me at john.grantorney.com to help other attorneys and legal professionals discover this podcast.

John Grant:

It helps a lot if you could rate or review me on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

John Grant:

And of course, be sure to subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

John Grant:

This podcast gets production support from the fantastic team at Digital Freedom Productions, and our theme song is the instrumental version of hello By Lunara.

John Grant:

That's it for today's episode.

John Grant:

Thank you for listening and see you next time.

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